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Injured Hearts, Injured Minds

Forrest Wilder | August 7, 2009 | Dateline

Click here to see Michael Kern's photos from Iraq.

In March, Army Spc. Michael Kern, 22, returned to Fort Hood after a year and a day in Iraq.

Shaken by his experience and disgusted with the war, Kern, a native of Riverside, Calif., tried to readjust by getting as hammered as possible. “Put it this way: For the first month, I was drunk at work, I was drunk 24/7.”

In Iraq the violence had been fast and furious. “We were going through all sorts of bad shit: mortars, IEDs, indirect fire. Anything you can think of we experienced the first day.”

On his second mission, Kern drew the short straw to drive the lead vehicle—a “mine resistant ambush protected” vehicle—in a convoy looking for a weapons cache near Baghdad. An IED exploded next to his vehicle, damaging his door. The platoon pulled back to base. The next day, April 7, on an identical mission, insurgents came after his unit with AK-47s, machine guns and IEDs. During the nine-hour firefight, a sniper killed Kern’s buddy, Sgt. Richard A. Vaughn. Two ­others, including Kern’s lieutenant, were seriously injured.

Kern tells me his story over two days in July at Under the Hood Café, a new GI coffeehouse and soldier-outreach center that opened in February. Since mid-May, when a drunken Kern first dropped in, Under the Hood has become his second home. While awaiting a medical discharge for PTSD and traumatic brain injury, he’s here almost every day, working out what happened to him in Iraq, planning anti-war events and helping other soldiers come to terms with their combat experiences. The coffeehouse provides a support network, friends who’ve helped him quit drinking, people he can call on day or night, and provides what Kern appreciated most about the military: a sense of camaraderie.

Michael Kern

“If it wasn’t for this place, it’s sad to say, I feel like I would be dead. I feel like I would have killed myself,” Kern says.

Under the Hood is a rifle shot from the east gates of Fort Hood in a grim ­commercial zone of tattoo parlors, pawnshops, car lots, payday lenders, bars, strip clubs, and a place advertising “gold grillz” for teeth—establishments eager to drain young soldiers of their earnings. In this garrison town, the café has become a gathering place for dissident GIs, peace activists, veterans and active-duty soldiers who need help.

Inside, the walls are decorated with peace propaganda, including a map of the world pinpointing U.S. military interventions and a poster that reads, “You Can’t Be All that You Can Be if You’re Dead.” A bookcase is stocked with anti-war literature. For entertainment, there’s a dartboard, a foosball table and a big-screen TV with PlayStation. No alcohol is allowed, but there’s no shortage of cigarette smoke.

Under the Hood is a gathering place for Ft. Hood soldiers, veterans and military spouses who are against the war or in need of help. Meet some of the patrons and organizers in this short documentary film by Matthew Gossage.

I came here to suss out efforts to build an anti-war movement within the Army. Fort Hood, the largest military installation in the country, has produced a smattering of war resisters in recent years. I met some of them at the coffeehouse, ­including Victor Agosto, an Iraq War veteran who refuses to deploy to Afghanistan, and Casey Porter, a mechanic who did two tours in Iraq. Porter, preparing to attend film school in Florida, recorded local life in Iraq, posting interviews with military personnel, battle footage and unvarnished street scenes.

Over the past four years, I’ve come into contact with scores of military personnel through my involvement with the Austin GI Rights Hotline, a group of volunteers trained to counsel service members about their rights.

Once a week, I sit on my couch and talk on the phone to soldiers, Marines and airmen who call with a dizzying array of issues, from the mundane to the impossibly complex. Many are stationed at Fort Hood. We get AWOL cases, people with untreated PTSD, 18-year-old enlistees who’ve found out their recruiter lied to them, middle-aged soldiers who’ve been stop-lossed, moms and dads calling on behalf of their kids, gay officers who’ve been outed—you name it. Some have made poor decisions; others are victims of a sometimes capricious, even cruel military system.

I got into it through my girlfriend. Katherine was in the news some years ago for being the first female conscientious objector to emerge from the war in Afghanistan. The military refused to ­recognize her as a conscientious objector, and after a long and painful process she was court-martialed and sentenced to 120 days in the brig. She ate lunch every day with Lynndie England, the young West Virginia woman best known for holding the leash in the infamous Abu Ghraib photos.

Joeie Michaels, Michael Kern’s roommate and an Under the Hood regular, used to dance at Babes, a Killeen strip club popular with GIs. Performing there, she made sure the troops left with a flier for the coffeehouse.

Under the Hood’s signal event was a Memorial Day peace march in the streets of Killeen, the city’s first since Vietnam. The Killeen newspaper reported about 70 participants. Cindy Thomas, the military spouse who manages the coffeehouse and plays den mother to the young, often-raucous soldiers, estimates about 10 to 15 were locals, including veterans and active-duty soldiers.

Cindy Thomas, military spouse and coffeehouse manager.

“It’s like a mother with a child,” Thomas says. “It’s unconditional love, and we help them any way we can.”

The building housing Under the Hood’s local antecedent, the Killeen coffeehouse Oleo Strut, is a few blocks away; it now houses an office complex. The Oleo Strut had a four-year run from 1968 to 1972, according to a history on Under the Hood’s Web site. Run by civilians and veterans, the Oleo Strut plugged Fort Hood soldiers into the Vietnam anti-war movement and spread their ideas in the barracks. An underground newspaper circulated from the coffeehouse, and the crowd there organized demonstrations and teach-ins. Musicians passed through, purportedly including a young Stevie Ray Vaughan.

“The tinder was very dry,” says Tom Cleaver, an Oleo Strut alum, Vietnam veteran and Hollywood screenwriter who helped raise money to start Under the Hood. “They ended up in ’69 and ’70 having big demonstrations there, a ­thousand guys marching in Killeen against the war.”

Fort Hood at that time was a holding station for soldiers returning from Vietnam with less than six months left on their enlistments. Before being discharged, many were deployed to suppress domestic riots and protests, including those at the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago.

“Here they come back to America, and what does the Army want them to do?” Cleaver asks. “Fight a war in America. That radicalized a lot of guys. They came back with bad feelings about the war, and now they were supposed to go defend the war.”

There’s no draft now, nor is there a broader social counterculture, to tap into. Given that, Thomas says, one of Under the Hood’s primary functions is giving soldiers a place to speak openly.

“The military, they don’t want you to think for yourself,” Thomas says. “They don’t want you to be informed; they don’t want you to know that you have support because they function by fear and intimidation over these soldiers. So when you have a space where you can talk freely and find out what your rights are, you have that support, you have that kindness. It is a threat to them.”

One coffeehouse regular, Spc. Ben Fugate, told me that after his commander spotted his name in a Killeen Daily Herald article about the Memorial Day peace march, his unit was lectured for two hours on the dangers of protesting.

Fugate, who describes himself as “very conservative,” had been quoted in the paper saying, “I lost three buddies in my platoon in Iraq, and for what? Why lose more when we don’t have to?”

Kern, seated on a couch in a cozy back room at Under the Hood, explains how he became a coffeehouse fixture. It’s a Thursday in July, and he’s wearing a T-shirt that asks, “Got Rights?” He’s pale and swallowing tranquilizers to suppress panic attacks.

“I’m fucked up,” he says. “I know it.” Later, he says, “You know how they say a teenage boy thinks about sex every eight seconds. Every eight seconds I think about Iraq.”

Kern, a tanker, says his unit averaged about two and a half missions per day.

At first, Kern says, he was gung ho: “I was an excellent soldier. I took joy out of killing people in Iraq. It was such an adrenaline rush. I craved it.”

Over time, bravado faded into depression, guilt and a strong feeling that the war was wrong. When Kern deployed to Iraq he took a small handheld digital video camera and a laptop with editing software. He fixed the camera to his vehicle’s turret and captured hours of patrol footage.

Some of that raw video has been ­distilled to a 10-minute film called Fire Mission that’s available online.

In the film’s last minutes, Spc. Steven Pesicka, a soldier in Kern’s unit, narrates what he calls a “mortar mission for shock and awe” near an Iraqi village. The first mortar lands near a house, and the forward observer calls for the next one to be targeted 200 meters farther from the village. The mortar team thought that was too far away, Pesicka says. The film shows the second mortar hitting the town. “Oh fuck,” the forward observer is heard to say. “They did not drop 200 [meters], over. They hit the town.”

Minutes after the explosion, the soldier describes dead bodies being loaded into the back of trucks.

Such experiences led Kern to a radical form of empathy.

“If you just take a step back and you think, I mean, I’d be doing the same thing if Iraqis were in the United States,” Kern, dressed in battle fatigues, says in Fire Mission. “I’d be the dude trying to plant a bomb under the road. I’d be trying to kill them. Oh, hell yeah, get the fuck out of my country.”

Beginning in May or June, Kern started having nightmares, sometimes while he was awake. On several occasions he hallucinated an Iraqi child with half his skull missing, as real to him as the desert heat. His psychiatrist says the child might represent guilt, but all Kern knows is that it scared the shit out of him. In January, on his birthday, while his unit was on patrol, he told a commander—in confidence—that he was going to see a mental health specialist. The doctor prescribed Zoloft and sent him on his way. Back with his platoon, Kern discovered that the commander had ratted him out to his platoon sergeant.

“I was called out in front of the entire platoon, was made an example of, saying why are you going to mental health. This isn’t a war. This isn’t bad.” The next day, on a mission, Kern talked openly of suicide. “Still to this day, my buddy doesn’t know he talked me down, but I really wanted to kill myself on that mission. I had three loaded weapons sitting right next to me. I could have done it real easy.”

Killeen's Under the Hood Cafe, coffeehouse and outreach center.

Back home, Kern avoided his demons, drowning them in drink. Thomas and Michaels encouraged Kern to open up.

“They’d be like, ‘How was Iraq?’ I’d say ‘Oh, it was just Iraq.’ I kept brushing it aside and stuff. They kept telling me, ‘You’re gonna break, you’re gonna break. You need to get help.’ ” Kern relented.

Michaels found a psychiatrist in Austin whom Kern has been seeing twice a week for free. In May he visited Fort Hood’s mental health services office, but was told he’d have to wait six weeks to see a doctor.

Meanwhile, the Iraqi child had followed Kern back to Texas. On the first of June, Kern was in the bathroom at Under the Hood when the child made an appearance. Afterward, Thomas and Michaels found Kern sitting ­outside under a tree. “The look on his face was just empty. His eyes were hollow,” Thomas says. Kern entered the 12-bed psychiatric ward at Fort Hood’s military hospital. He spent the next week there, emerging with a diagnosis of PTSD and traumatic brain injury. Doctors put him on five medications, including tranquilizers, antidepressants and antipsychotics,­ which he carries in a small orange pillbox.

A week after being released, Kern started a blog, “Expendable Soldier.” In his first post he wrote, “I still hate myself and everything I do. No matter what I am doing any day of the week I some how am still reminded of the things I did while I was in Iraq, and sometimes it gets so bad that I believe I am still in Iraq. ... Sometimes I wish I never came back.”

Still, Kern reports for duty at the coffeehouse every day. He’s working on restarting an Iraq Veterans Against the War chapter in Killeen and talking to other soldiers about the coffeehouse. Does he feel like he’s become part of an anti-war movement? “I am part of an anti-war movement,” he says. “There’s no ‘feeling’ about it.”



Wow!  This really opened my eyes.  I figured that the whole town was “pro” about the War because it keeps them in business!  Congrats to Under the Hood!!

Posted by Chayo  on  08/06/09  at  10:06 AM

The whole town “pro” on the war? Well, believe it or not, as Gen MacArthur said “No one prays for peace more than the soldier” Firefighters and EMS folks probably hate having to carry folks out of burning buildings or car crashes. But they train and ready themselves for that potential event even though they hope never to have to do the job we’ve trained them to do.
If the no-win wars this country has blundered into (Korea, Bosnia and of course Iraq) teach us anything, it is this: The decision to fight or not fight a war [for WMD, to end genocide/ethnic cleansing etc] should not be rushed into. If it’s truly an elective war, like Iraq, we really really must demand that our elected representatives who (unlike us) vote on whether we fight or not can construct a good case for fighting with credible undeniable evidence.
Iraq with WMD would have at best been a threat to Ahmadinejad and the Saudis. Israel has nukes and would use them or a covert Mossad team against any significant regional threat.

I’m still amazed that we have so many gays and lesbians desiring to enter the military if it means the chance of PTSD, a maimed limb or a life in Killeen/Copperas Cove!

Posted by Brad  on  08/06/09  at  12:42 PM

Thank you very much for covering Under The Hood Cafe and the good people that go there.

Posted by Casey J Porter  on  08/06/09  at  03:40 PM

Michael Kern and other Iraq Veterans Against the War will be on Information Underground on Sunday from 5-6pm on KEOS 89.1FM College Station-Bryan.

Posted by Teddy  on  08/06/09  at  04:25 PM

Thanks for the article it was a hard thing to do but im glad its out there… and as far as anyone getting in contact with me about anything from IVAW or other peace keeping activity’s or just to talk shoot me a email.

Thanks
Michael Kern
Iraq Veterans Against The War

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Posted by Michael Kern  on  08/06/09  at  06:08 PM

Great article.
Michael, it will get better, no matter how dark it gets.

Posted by Tom Baxter  on  08/06/09  at  07:47 PM

I really do hope so.

Posted by Michael Kern  on  08/06/09  at  08:35 PM

If you can’t stand chocolate don’t work at the Hershey factory and if you oppose war dont rush off for the recruiter’s office.
This country embraced the Goldwater “Go in, get it over with, get out” approach to warfighting after the Viet Nam debacle. All the “wars” were actually quickie “operations”: Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm.
But we forgot the lessons learned. If a war from start to finish takes more than 4 years to wage, we should lean heavily against fighting it and then only with a multi-lateral fighting force all in agreemt about the desired end-state and whether in fact it can be achieved.
We will eventually wake up to the vast cost to fight wars when we lack local, supportive indigenous forces to hand off responsibility to. Bush was like LBJ: ea man said US forces would stand down when the local allied force was able to stand up and do its share of the fight. But what incentive have we given the Iraqis to do just that (stand up and fight their own war)? None really.
The US will eventually bug out but when we do I hope we have a strongman cacique to hold all the factions together otherwise the post withdrawal evac from Iraq will ignite a bloodbath far worse than when the commies took control of all of Viet Nam

Posted by Brad  on  08/07/09  at  07:16 AM

Brad, if you think that anyone who signs up to serve our country to protect our freedom is “rushing off to the recruiters office,” you couldn’t be more wrong.  Many people who enlist do it for various reasons (for example, as a way of getting a college degree they could otherwise not afford), but they oftentimes are not aware of the brutalities of war until they are actually there.
Our society creates a culture that simultaneously numbs us to violence and killing while also glorifying it.  Video games, movies and television all create a culture that grows up seeing fake killing and death.  Like someone who has only seen pornography is in for a rude awakening the first time they have sex, many of our military men and women are grossly unaware of the realities of death and killing when they sign up to serve and defend America.
Who better qualified to oppose war than someone who has been there and seen it firsthand?  To discredit not only their physical and mental sacrifice is frankly rude and—yeah, I’ll say it—unpatriotic.

Posted by Mean Rachel  on  08/07/09  at  01:51 PM

I’ve been to Iraq twice. Saw lots of death and maimed soldiers. I knew what I had in store for me as a nurse.
I think it somewhat condescending to imply we’ve raised up a generation of Xbox numbed kids who somehow forgot that wars mean fighting and fighting means killing.
But you do have a good point. The service branches furthest removed from battlefield guts and gore (ie enlisted USAF mechanics or air craft carrier sailors) don’t expose young folks to carnage up front and for that reason I advise young folks to pursue enlistmt in those. True, promotions don’t come as quickly but how many air base load masters come home maimed or diagnosed with PTSD?

We’ve had how many years of these interminable wars for people not to know not every foot soldier returns back to the USA in one living piece?

Posted by Brad  on  08/07/09  at  03:22 PM

Brad, I’ve got to disagree with you on this:
“I think it somewhat condescending to imply we’ve raised up a generation of Xbox numbed kids who somehow forgot that wars mean fighting and fighting means killing.”
It’s not condescending - it’s a fact.  Between 1985 and 1991, the homicide rate for males fifteen to nineteen increased by 154 percent.  In 1993, the American Psychological Association’s commission on violence and youth concluded that “there is absolutely no doubt that higher levels of viewing violence on television are correlated with increased acceptance of aggressive attitudes and increased aggressive behavior.”
Also in 1993, in an issue of “The Public Interest,” Dr. Brandon Canterwall, a professor of epidemiology at the University of Washington, summarized the overwhelming nature of this.  He estimated that if television had never been invented, there would be 10,000 fewer homicides each year in the US, 70,000 fewer rapes and 700,000 fewer injurious assaults.  He reached those numbers after studying the effect of television being introduced to rural, isolated communities in Canada and when English-language TV broadcasts were permitted in South Africa in 1975, after previously being banned by the government.  In each case, violent crime among children increased spectacularly, with about 8% of the population shifting from below-average aggression to above-average aggression.

All of those facts are from a book called “On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society” by Lt. Col. David Grossman that I would encourage anyone in the military or thinking about joining the military read.

I do think you have some good points about joining other branches of service.

Posted by Mean Rachel  on  08/07/09  at  03:59 PM

I am a Viet Nam combat Vet who was 18 when getting to Nam, and turned 19 in country. We were treated so disrespectfully by the war protesters when we came home that we isolated and told no one we were Nam Vets. We all had PTSD, and the first step to treating it is to deprogram by being able to talk about it while being welcomed home at the same time. So we held it all inside like a pressure cooker, only to explode later. Then the same protesters said, “See how crazy those Nam Vets are.” but you would not allow us to deprogram and added to the PTSD immensely by your treatment of us, pushing us into the woodwork and not allowing us to get treatment. When we interviewed for a job, a coward draft dodger or deserter that went to Canada was given the job above us if they knew we were Nam Vets. Shame on you War protesters! Yes, Nam was a bad idea, and so is Iraq and Afghanistan, but how do you think the Vet feels when they see you in the streets like I see in Garberville, California every Friday by Vets for Peace with signs saying “The Terrorists are U.S.” The Vets do not feel welcomed home and think you hate the Troops all over again! Do you really separate the war from the warrior this time? Most Vets do not feel it yet.  I protest this war by not ever discussing the politics of this current engagement with the returning Vets, but letting them know I know what they are going through, they are not alone, helping them get past the gatekeepers at the VA for treatment. If you have never been to war, then shut your mouth around Vets. If you are a Vet, then what the hell are you doing making Vets feel unwanted again. You would have more experienced Vets on your side if you changed your tactics. Support the Troops also means Support the Vets! Think before you open your pie hole.

Posted by Woodstock  on  08/17/09  at  11:27 AM

I think I may have cluttered up my original point. Allow me then to remake it. Since 2003 our govt has been engaged in a war with two fronts or two wars—choose your terminology. I spent my late teens early 20s attending community college in Dallas while working part time as burger flipper, dairy case stock boy. School was a challenge. My part time jobs sucked but they did enable me to live at home and do the “pay as you go” route for school. (Parents didnt charge rent but I was expected to be unpaid farm help on the weekend).
Anyone who enters the military—esp the ground fighting branches like the USMC or army—knowing full well we are in two un-ending wars and yet NOT EXPECTING TO HAVE TO GO DOWNRANGE is surely delusional.
We have no draft. Those who serve today do so by choice.

The comments made by these adults who knowingly contracted to served in the ARMED FORCES (Armed to do what exactly? Can someone tell these young men, please!!?) are to me akin to the young woman who bitched and filed a lawsuit alleging that she as a HOOTER girl was subjected to leers and inappropriate comments about her appearance from restaurant patrons.
There is a war on. If you raise your hand and swear an oath you might find yourself having to fight it. So don’t swear in, dont sign the contract! Or don’t re-enlist if you have any qualms about what you’ll be asked to do or what might be done to you.

And what is the latest on the young man in Afghanistan who wandered off without rifle and body armor?

Posted by Brad  on  08/17/09  at  01:35 PM

Brad, you’re mixed up, like millions of politically deluded Americans. People join the army to protect and uphold the constitution and our freedoms. They’re brainwashed by the media and government like you into thinking that attacking a sovereign nation in violation of international law will accomplish this. Then they do their so-called duty, and kill civilians and other people relatively defenseless against America’s modern military machine. Then, in just like every other war in our history, they’re given substandard weapons and supplies, putting their lives in greater unnecessary risk. Then, their military leaders send them on questionable missions, even suicide missions (haven’t you seen “A Bridge Too Far” about Operation Market Garden during WWII or “Hamburger Hill” or “Paths of Glory”?). These soldiers have no choice but to follow these ridiculous orders. Did you know that WWII would have ended three years earlier if the Allies had bombed the Germans’ electrical power stations, but they never did? Do you know that the U.S. government still denies the existence of Gulf War Syndrome from the first Gulf War to this day? Did you know that there are thousands of documented cases of MIAs sighted from wars as far back as Korea that the government still refuses to investigate? Do you still think this is what a soldier signs up for?
This is not American, constitutional, or civilized.

Posted by gmeister  on  11/08/09  at  02:00 PM

And don’t forget, while we are heavily focused on Afghanistan and Iraq, the Obama administration is setting the scene for upcoming U.S. interventions in Latin America, having just signed an agreement (without publicity and without any congressional or public involvement) for stationing U.S. troops and material at 7 bases in Colombia.  The war machine and the war industry march on.  Please direct some of your reading, activism, and energy towards supporting our Latin American brothers and sisters and to avoid the U.S. government and military from furthering its new focus on undermining Latin American attempts at taking control of their own destinies.

Posted by David Brookbank  on  11/09/09  at  09:23 AM

I dont know how many kids rush off to the MEPS or recruiter office with the idea of defending our constitution and our freedoms. Poll data I’ve seen seems to show few GED holders understand either to be honest and trust me, the recruiters will be having to rely much more on GED holders from the urban under class. That means liberal upper middle class whites (the bulk of the OBSERVERS readers) will be “defended” by men named Jose, Tyrone or Billy Bob.
The real problem as Ron Paul and others have noted is we send folks off to ENFORCE “international law” such as UN Resolutions which our ELECTED reps never got to vote on. Nowhere in the constitution does it say the Armed Forces exists to enforce UN resolutions or mandates. Only the Bushes and Clintons seem to believe that, not avg Joes.
Didnt know about the German power plants. Can you cite a source?
Gulf War Syndrome? You are incorrect according to what I get from the VA. Heck, I went to the VA hospital and Temple Texas. They collect data on that collection of symptoms. But rest assured your Gummint is aware of the issue and VA med centers do treat it after a resolution was enacted by congress despite there being little statistical data to support it. Another victim of junk science akin to the “connective tissue disorder” caused by breast implants? Who knows?
If there are reports of MIAs from prior wars dont you think we would have seen photos? But if the publication of that data would endanger a trade agreemt with the current govt of either Red china or Viet Nam, the media and Business Round Table would have it spiked very quickly. Who knows? That may have happened. Drug usage was rampant in the Viet Nam days (no urinalysis back then). I suspect many MIA men went on to successful civilian careers in Thailand.

Again, back to the original point of this thread. Even kids who wont/cannot read a newspaper know this country has troops bogged down in un-winnable wars. Its a measure of how desperate so many are that working class kids continue to flock to the recruiters’ offices. There are other options out there available to finance education. Perhaps we need more co-op and apprenticeship options. But since many of the youngsters in the military are parents in their early 20s, I think the panoply of benefits the armed forces offers simply cannot be found in the civilian sector with the limited edukayshin most kids git from gummint skools.

I tend to agree with Frank Schaeffer. An all volunteer army will continue to be “wasted” in meaningless, ill-conceived, poorly-funded/supplied wars. If mo folks had “skin in the game” esp our Congressmen and Senators, wars would be reluctantly entered into but quickly resolved. R party leaders laughed at LBJ’s “nation building” experiment in Viet Nam yet the last R party president just like LBJ put the USA on a nation-building project in two muslim countries whose religio-cultural paradigm are inhospitable/hostile to pluralistic democratic limited govt.

I say USA outta Bosnia too for that matter! We’ve been there way way too long.

Posted by Brad  on  11/09/09  at  11:23 AM

Brad,
  I was 17 when I joined the USMC in 1972. I had an older uncle who had been in the Ardennes Forest in WW2 who tried to talk me out of it. Well as I matured in the next few years I had a change of heart and decided that I agreed with the sentiments of Mohammed Ali and others . I met and talked to alot of people in Southern California where I was stationed and gained alot of perspective on that war. I decided I didnt want to kill people unless I was protecting my family or unless “they” came over here and attacked us. 
I guess people like you are so well founded in your beliefs ,and of course right about everything ,never have to worry about having a change of heart or mind smile...
Peace Brad

Posted by Rusty  on  11/12/09  at  06:02 AM

Rusty, you could’ve defended the constitution at Ruby Ridge or the Davidian compound. Seems like the only armed threat to most folks’ constitutional liberties comes from the very govt we expect to protect us!

Posted by Brad  on  11/12/09  at  12:48 PM

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