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. . . you file the motion, or if you don’t do this in a certain time . . . and a woman’s first reaction, predominantly the female morality would be to say, well, I should work out this relationship with somebody. It is consistent of my image of how I deal with people. But I don’t know if you get beat over the head with it in the end or not. Smiley: I don’t either. You really do have to be careful. not to follow your own instincts if your perception is that the interest of your client requires you to do something else, completely different from the way you would normally go in a situation. And that is hard because a pattern of that over time causes you to start changing your own personal behavior. Cascelle Noble: Because those roles really conflict with your personal style, you know. Because suddenly you learn to hide, and posture; I mean posturing is a big part of being a lawyer and the posture is usually: how tough can I be? Smith: In my first year of practice I was sitting second chair in a trial that involved two doctors. One doctor was suing another doctor for violating a noncompete clause. And while we’re sitting in the courtroom, I’m sitting next to my client, and he all of a sudden has a heart attack and falls on the floor, and we thought he was dead. The other doctor’s son was in the courtroom watching the trial, he was a navy medic, and saved the man’s life. And it’s just very dramatic. Ripped off his clothes and massaged his heart and started him breathing again, and the next day after we recovered from all that, I went in to the lawyer and I said, “Well, I guess that changes everything.” And he says, “What do you mean? Soon as he can get back, we’ll be back in the courtroom.” I said, “He just saved his life. We’re still going to be suing the other man?” He said, “Well that didn’t change anything.” I was amazed. I thought I was in a funny world. Patricia Love: What y ‘all are talking about is one of the most common ; themes that I hear: that is the belief that, number one, law is very person-oriented, or very inter-personal, or very people oriented, and getting there and finding out it’s not. For a person who’s not been there it looks that way to me it looks like fun; you’re helping people, and you’re doing what I do; you’re counseling, and you’re an advocate, and you’re taking care of people. And the conflict [comes] when you get there and find business as usual . . . and a rule is a rule, and it goes against your instincts. The other issue that you sort of touched on a little bit, Martha, is what happens when you go home? Because you said that soon it starts to affect your personality, and what if your spousal relation or your love relationship is based upon you being in the traditional role, and all of a sudden that changes? How does that affect . . . when you’re posturing, you don’t leave it when you walk in the door. How do you reconcile it? Smith: You don’t. And it gets to be .. . I had a real clear example of that when I was staying home with a sick child, when my children were younger. One of them was really sick, and the other was sick that his brother was staying home, so they both stayed home. And I was on the telephone trying to negotiate with another family lawyer over a case, and the lawyer on the other side was also a soccer player who ran a soccer camp that one of my children had been to. And we found ourselves screaming at each other. When I put down the I knew I was going to make him say things he shouldn’t say. I went home and I was depressed and I thought, “Why am I doing this?” phone, my son looked up at me and said “Mama. Why would you talk to Phil like that?” And I thought, why would I talk to Phil like that? Very good question. How ridiculous. Love: You do that over time and it does start to have an impact on you personally. And how do you reconcile that with your history and with the other setting that you go to in the evening? I mean, it’s like any change. Once one person changes it affects the whole system. And that conflict is where I often see people. And they feel like they have to choose by the way, this is another theme, that it’s either/or. I have to be this person or that person. Smith: They don’t fit together. Love: Right. It’s like that person doesn’t come in one body. Those two people don’t fit in one body. A lot of people say who am I? I’m confused. In my practice, I don’t feel I’m congruent I feel like I’m an imposter. And when I’m at home, that doesn’t feel . . . it’s like, where am I? Sarah Weddington: But don’t you feel that’s true of all professional women? Do you find it’s significantly more true of attorneys? Love: I’ve heard it more from attorneys, but you know in my limited experience Smiley: I think it may be more true of women lawyers, who are playing an advocate role, and posturing, and being tough and assertive and aggressive and any other characteristics that we don’t really think of as being us, but characteristics that we feel we have to take on in being an advocate. And if you’re a professional in some other context, you may be counseling, or you may be crunching numbers or administering or doing any number of other things that don’t require you to be sitting opposite from somebody and argue with them. And win. And day after day, in our profession that’s what we’re called to do. I think that may be a significant difference. But I can’t test that. Because I haven’t talked to very many women in other professions about these kind of things. Love: I often feel like I’m on the cusp, you know, between two generations. And I feel like a pioneer. Smiley: And the rules aren’t clear. Love: Right, we’re making up the rules as we go along. But the adversarial position seems to be a value conflict, that’s another theme that I hear. Smith: Well, it does aggravate the other conflicts that are there, I think. Love: I think a general style might be, well let’s talk about it, and let’s cooperate and let’s see what’s best for everybody, and the answer to that is, that’s not what you’re hired to do. Johnson: I remember sitting down for my very first deposition. And there was this defendant over there who was this middle-aged Mexican man who was driving a truck, who hit my plaintiff. And I liked my plaintiff a lot, and this man was there with his two bosses, these white men in suits and ties, and we were in this really fancy law office that overlooked Town Lake, and he was so uncomfortable, and I felt so terrible for him. I knew the facts of the case better than he did. And I knew that I was going to make him say things that he shouldn’t say. I did it, and I did it as nicely as I could, and I tried to be real nice to him. And he opened up because I was so nice to him, but I felt terrible! I went home and I was depressed and I thought, why am I doing this? Because when it THE TEXAS OBSERVER 11